1. @4 - Charles02/27/2008 11:59:49 AM

Charles,

You are correct. I asked ! And I really appreciate your detailed feedback. It does help in understanding what developers are looking for. Based upon comments and feedback so far, it appears folks are more interested in how to surface Domino Databases and data to the web than they are "Traditional" nsf development.

Thanks for your thoughts and insight !!

Paul T. Calhoun

2. Brandt Fundak02/26/2008 01:45:32 PM

From my own experience, I would have benefited from someone showing me how to leverage custom classes in LotusScript. I have to agree with Charles however--when I first began developing for Notes/Domino creating really nice web apps was a dark voodoo art and thanks to a severely limited color palette (this was in the 4.6 days) web apps tended to look like crap. I am assuming that developing web apps for Domino nowadays is a nicer experience, but I really don't know because as Charles put it, the subject tends to get short shrift. I would like to learn not only about web facing apps, but how to use AJAX, JSON and other techniques to create "Web 2.0" Domino apps. As it is currently, i'm left to pursue a "hunt and peck" approach where I am usually taking whitepapers that don't have Domino in mind and try to see them through a domino colored filter. Not the easiest thing in the world.

3. Charles Robinson02/26/2008 12:35:08 PM
Homepage: http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com

Paul, you asked what training I would attend. I know web development. I know Notes development. I need to combine those into Domino development, and it has proven exceedingly difficult using the training I have attended so far (and it wasn't just one conference from The View).

My point was mostly that I would like to use a real application, not something purpose-built for a class that isn't feature complete or representative of what I'll come across in the real world. For bonus points let me work with a database I'm already familiar with. If you don't, be aware that by using a sample db you built I have no idea how it was put together, so part of the time is going to be spent figuring that out before I can even get to the new stuff you're trying to teach. Giving me a database and hitting the ground running with all new concepts doesn't work for me. I need to understand how the application is put together in the first place, then I can work on extending it.

I would think the overall concept of webifying a form or view is fairly generic so it shouldn't matter to you whether it's a controlled environment or an unfamiliar one. Since I've never done that, or taught such a class, I could be way off base. But again... you asked what training I would attend. I didn't say you have to deliver it.

4. Paul T. Calhoun02/26/2008 10:57:28 AM

@2 - Charles.

You stated;

I'd really like to attend a class that goes through web-enabling a Notes application from start to finish. I mean starting with an existing real-world application, not something based on the discussion database or some other simplistic template. Even better would be to let me bring my own application. Actually explain what's going on, and do it s l o w l y

Do you really believe that that is a realistic expectation in conference style training with 40 plus participants ? What you are describing sounds a lot more like consulting than training. As I do both training and consulting I will have to say I have done exactly what you describe in a one on (Five or fewer) environments that were specific to a companies implementation.

But in any public training (large or small) how would we address your application without making the training specific to your application ? And what about everyone else who was in attendance who didn't want to know the specifics of your application ?

When developing training I try and provide working examples that developers can take back to their house and implement in their own code and databases understanding that they can't do a complete cut and paste.

5. Charles Robinson02/26/2008 08:23:13 AM
Homepage: http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com

I'm a traditional Windows and Notes client developer. I like an environment I can control from start to finish. I can do web development outside Domino. I know HTML, CSS, and have even done some sites with liquid layout. Trying to shoehorn it into Notes has been an exercise in futility for me. Every time I have ever had to do anything web-related in Domino I end up doing the HTML in an external application and pasting it in as pass-through HTML.

I attended The View's web developer bootcamp in 2005. I left that not knowing any more than I started with and really felt it was a waste of time and money. It was much too high level and covered too much in a couple of days for anything to sink in. I have some sample apps from that conference, but I had no idea how to pull them apart then and I eventually gave up trying to figure it out.

I'd really like to attend a class that goes through web-enabling a Notes application from start to finish. I mean starting with an existing real-world application, not something based on the discussion database or some other simplistic template. Even better would be to let me bring my own application. Actually explain what's going on, and do it s l o w l y. The View's conference was along the lines of: "Here's a view and we just set it up to display as a table oh look there's CSS and then you load this up in a $$ViewTemplate and add some stuff to the JSHeader and voila! Perfect beautiful view! You can do this on your own back at your office have a nice day good bye. Now we're going to cover Java..."

6. Timothy Briley02/25/2008 03:56:38 PM

I'm usually looking for one of two things in dev training. New UI looks for a Notes app that work in the real world is the first. The second is ways to improve performance.